The interview with Mary Ann Cade on researching & collecting silent film continues (you can catch up with some of her astonishing finds in part one).

Mary, you’ve found some really rare film footage — of historical value. I know you have several collections, but in your silent film collection, what do you consider to be ‘the crown jewel’?

The rarest pieces of props that I have in my collection are a belt, slave bracelet and chain of office from the 1917 silent film production of Cleopatra starring Theda Bara, which is currently believed to be lost. I have a photograph of Ms. Bara wearing the belt in costume, so I am pretty confident that these are authentic pieces. All of them come with certificates of authenticity.

[Interviewer's Note: I peed a little at the notion of anyone owning such fabulous, jaw-dropping items. Can you even imagine?! And I felt a little dizzy when she sent me photos -- which you'll find throughout this post.]

Aside from the passion for collecting and an interest in silent film, why do you put so much effort into your research?

The films were originally produced to be viewed by audiences not held hostage in an archive. This problem is quite evident for people like me, who don’t live near a large city where silent film festivals are regularly shown or close to places like the British Film Institute archive for in-house viewing of materials.

I have never accepted any money for any of this. I have done all of my research and location of these films solely because of my love of silent film and my goal is to see that all films in archives are preserved and made available to anyone who wants to see them.

You mentioned buying films/footage copies from the Library of Congress. Can such things really happen?

Yes, you can purchase footage from the Library of Congress. I believe if it is before 1923, there aren’t any restrictions on the copyright issues but after 1923 you have to have complete clearances and/or be connected to the film in some way, either a cast member or crew member, relative of a cast member or crew member or involved in the production in some way.

What about other institutions and archives… Language barriers aside, can anyone obtain such copies?

The British Film Institute archive said they will not sell films to anyone other than film archivists or persons actually connected with the film itself. They confirmed they hold the 1909 Kellerman short Jepthah’s Daughter and at one time I was told they held the 1909 Kellerman short The Bride of Lammermoor A Tragedy of Bonnie Scotland, but haven’t been able to get further confirmation about it. They have confirmed that they hold the 1915 film Youth starring Antonio Moreno and featuring Valda Valkyrien. They confirmed they have partial footage of the 1915 Mary Pickford film Fanchon The Cricket which supposedly stars her entire family and may possibly have footage of Fred Astaire dancing with his sister Adele. I passed this information onto Hugh Munro Neely of Timeline Films, who in conjunction with the Mary Pickford Foundation is always looking for surviving footage of Ms. Pickford in the hopes of preservation and subsequent release.

Are there specific requirements (besides cash amounts lol) which must be met in order to arrange such a deal? Are there preservation issues &/or copyright concerns?

[Since] the original footage is retained in the archive that holds it, and you’d be purchasing a copy, preservation isn’t an issue in that sense.

I believe the archives store the footage that has not been preserved in cold storage facilities to preserve it until such time they have the funding for restoration purposes. I would imagine once the footage has been converted from nitrate to 16 mm or 35 mm, they probably destroy the nitrate stock because it is highly flammable and over time will disintegrate into dust.

I believe the reason the BFI and other archives are reluctant to deal with anyone other than archivists or persons associated with the respective work is because of copyright issues. I am not positive on this but I get the distinct impression that overseas copyright rules are much more gray in nature than they are in the US. They probably have this strict policy in place for ALL works instead of certain ones, it makes it easier procedurally than to have one set of rules that apply for one type of work (i.e. silent films or films before 1923) and another completely different set of rules for another type of work (i.e. sound films and/or pre-sound films after 1923).

Obviously, the question of copyright issue is a very complex one in nature and subject to legal interpretation. I do not profess to know the law on this issue and would not presume to interpret it, but in the past the LOC has told me that works before 1923 don’t have the restrictions placed on them that apply towards anything produced afterwards. I found this example on CinemaWeb that lists distributors of “public domain” films which might clarify things a bit better.

How does an average person go about seeing silent films which have not been released for sale or has public viewings, such as film festivals etc.?

Most archives allow viewing in person by scheduling an appointment with the respective organization. I am not sure if they charge for just viewing in person. Some of them also have some viewing services via the internet, I think this is relatively new. I believe when I was on the Screensound site, it mentioned something of this nature. I would imagine that you are probably limited on what can be viewed over the internet because of the film format, whereas in person you can watch 16 mm, 35 mm, VHS, DVD or any other form of media.

I have also discovered that many of the films sites are adding on-line catalogs to aid in searches for materials as well which is a big help. I am hopeful that maybe one day, the worldwide archives and libraries can put together their own information superhighway so we can search one big mammoth database for everything and find which respective archival institution or library holds it.

I have proposed to several people that I feel these archival institutions should make the footage available for viewing on-line via computer for a fee (like interlibrary loan) and the proceeds from the viewing of the films, would go to preserve other held titles for future viewing. This way, the films would be preserved and they would be viewable again.

By making this material available to persons who cannot afford to go to the BFI in London, but still want to view one of their holdings, this would make all things possible to all people. The material would be shown and not be locked away, the person who needs to view the footage, either for pleasure or scholarly research, is able to see it without spending a fortune to travel to do so and any fees charged should be put in a non-profit account specifically set aside for restoration and preservation of other films held.

This would be great not only for silent film fans but for classes at universities that teach film study. They could purchase titles on-line for class viewing and discussion. I think it’s a “win-win” situation for everyone involved without the complexity of copyright issues for films newer than 1923.

The archive can also make an argument to the fact that the costs of storing the films that haven’t been preserved can be expensive, but by implementing my ideas with respect to the non-profit account for monies collected, the films not yet restored would be preserved and made available to the public for viewing. This would reduce the amount of films in the archive not yet preserved and the newest ones restored would start paying for themselves because of the monies charged for viewing. By taking this approach, eventually wouldn’t everything held in the archive be restored at some point?

I agree. Where can we go to find silent films which are available now?

Ned Thanhouser is making the Thanhouser classics available on his website, www.thanhouser.org, in collections for purchase. I have all three sets thus far and they are very interesting to watch of an era long gone by.

Periodically, I will get emails from Grapevine Video about new releases as well. Please check out the various silent film websites which you can find via a google search for news of upcoming releases such as www.silentera.com or going to this link for a list of distributors of silent films which is regularly updated.

Anything you’re working on right now we should know about?

Right now, I am working on a biography about Ms. Kellerman as well as one on Valda Valkyrien for Tim’s site, www.silentsaregolden.com. I am searching for Valkyrien films, which are tougher to locate, but hopefully in the next few months I will have some news to report. There are many things going on behind the scenes that are still in the planning stages but if all goes well, I hope to report some wonderful news. I have had contact with surviving members of Valkyrien’s family which has been pretty exciting. I hope to get some information from them about this very elusive actress. I can keep you posted on this, if you are interested.

If I’m interested? Heck, yes!

So look for more on, and from, Mary in the future. You can reach Mary Ann Cade in the CQ Community, and you may email her at cadesmall@sbcglobal.net or mcade@ccmsi.com.

As mentioned, Mary has many collections, including a lovely collection of television props & memorabilia which we’ll be featuring some of those on Thursday.

Last December, I ran into an article on swimming sensation, silent film star, author & entrepreneur, Annette Kellerman.

Called The Australian Mermaid, billed as “the Diving Venus”, and dubbed “the world’s most perfectly-formed woman”, Kellerman had her share of scandals, including being arrested in 1907 for indecent exposure for appearing in her bathing suit & being the first big star to appear nude in a film. She also authored several books (on fitness as well as children’s stories) and had a fitness club in LA.

I know some of you classic film buffs are scratching your heads, thinking this all sounds familiar… It is. In 1952 Esther Williams played the role of Annette Kellerman in Million Dollar Mermaid.

Knowing that those-in-the-know estimate that only about 20% of the silent features have survived, it made me wonder & worry… Have any of Kellerman’s films survived? And if so, are they only shown in exclusive locations and the silent film festivals of larger cities? Would I ever be able to see a Kellerman film?

Then I read about Mary Ann Cade.

Mary is one of those collectors I hope I grow up to be someday (even if we are nearly the same age). She’s not only a great collector; a serious, dedicated researcher; but a rescuer of silent films. She’s actually found Kellerman film and other silent film footage which had been presumed lost.

Can you imagine?

I get frustrated when I can find no answers after a few weeks of diligent searching, but here’s a person who searches even when others — who ought to know — stamp an object “presumed lost”.

Naturally, I had to talk to Mary.

A most gracious, and, as you shall see, fascinating person, Mary agreed.

When & how did your interest in Annette Kellerman begin?

Well, let me start by saying that I have always been interested in silent films since viewing my first one around the age of 13. The article I wrote for Tim Lussier’s website about Lost Silent Films starts out with my first exposure and interest in silent film. I was so fascinated by silent film after seeing Phantom of the Opera, I started researching silent film at the time and checked out all the local books in my area library (long before the invention of the internet and Ebay) to find out what I could.

One of the first books I checked out was The Pictorial History of the Silent Screen by Daniel Blum which has tons of photos of silent stars and film scenes, many of which no longer survive. My introduction to Ms. Kellerman was through this book (as was my introduction to Valkyrien) and I remember checking it out numerous times after that until I could locate my own copy for purchase.

After viewing the Annette Kellerman bio-pic Million Dollar Mermaid with Esther Williams, I renewed my interest in Ms. Kellerman and started searching to see if any films of hers had survived. Kellerman was kind of like the Oprah Winfrey or Madonna of her generation with her film career, hippodrome shows, books, physical fitness books and health clubs and it is just a shame how forgotten she is today.

Since the invention of the internet and Ebay, I have been collecting lots of silent film books and memorabilia, including film and movie props.

I have one of Ms. Kellerman’s bathing suits that is in excellent shape considering it is over 90 years old. It still has the Annette Kellermann (with two n’s) label sewn into it.

I have an autographed photo of her film still, The Daughter of the Gods, with the famous nearly nude shot, probably the first nude shot in history.

I also have a silent film pen pal who purchased Ms. Kellerman’s A Daughter of the Gods wardrobe trunk. He has sent me photos of it and I have been asking him if he would sell it for a long time, but so far I haven’t been successful.

The story of your hunting for any lost films by Kellerman is fascinating! When I read it I was swept away — and a little envious too. While you blithely write about discoveries in Russia — including tracking them down to physically get your hands on such lost films — I’m sure there was a lot more hard work involved. Tell us a bit about this process.

My article for lost silent films started when Tim Lussier of SilentsAreGolden.com had been asking me to write an article for his website. I had seen many reviews for films and originally I was going to do a film review, but couldn’t really decide on which film, so instead of that, I asked him about an article regarding the decomposition of nitrate film stock and the loss of almost 90% of the silent films ever produced. I think around the time of the article, there was the discovery of the 1922 Rudolph Valentino/Gloria Swanson film Beyond the Rocks that was presumed lost and found some 80+ years later that gave me the idea to do an article about lost films.

I had been corresponding with Ned Thanhouser of Thanhouser Company Film Preservation, Inc., whose grandfather Edwin Thanhouser, started Thanhouser Productions in the early 1910’s. Ned is on a mission to locate every surviving Thanhouser film production and get them preserved and released so they can be viewed again. I started doing Google searches on silent film, obtaining film contacts via the internet and contacting the Library of Congress for assistance via their Ask a Librarian feature on their website.

The information I was given by the LOC regarding the possibility of some Kellerman footage surviving in archives worldwide, led to my contacts at Screensound Australia and my email conversations with Bronwyn Dowdall. I contacted her and found that about one reel (20 minutes) of footage survived from the 1914 release Neptune’s Daughter and could be purchased directly from their archive on VHS tape. I contacted Jack Hardy of Grapevine Video and together we purchased the footage.

[Interviewer's Note: Jack Hardy of Grapevine Video confirmed that the found Neptune's Daughter footage is an extra on the Venus of the South Seas disc.]

In the meantime, I had been in contact with Thomas Christensen of the Danish Film Institute and he had footage from a 1911 Kellerman short entitled Siren of the Sea. This short film wasn’t even listed in Ms. Kellerman’s credits on IMDB until I located it. He sent me a copy of the footage which is about 3 minutes in length.

The research for the article took time and patience but it was a labor of love for me and most people were very kind and helpful so it wasn’t that difficult. The biggest problem was getting some archives to respond. I think some of the difficulty could be the language barrier. I think many of the sites are dual language now, which helps, but for example, Gosfilmofond of Russia, most of the site is in Russian, as is their catalog, so you have to be able to contact someone who can read and interpret English. I think this is why it is difficult to get regular responses from them. They confirmed in emails that they hold about one reel of footage from Neptune’s Daughter but cannot tell me which section of footage they hold. They also stated that it can be purchased from TekNoVideo but no one ever gives a response regarding the purchase and I keep sending emails without success.

How long have you spent researching Kellerman? Estimates, even if on say one film etc., would help illustrate how much effort you’ve put into this.

Research time on Kellerman would be impossible to pinpoint in hours or time searched. I wouldn’t even venture a guess. I have probably spent as much time on research of her as I have on Henry VIII and the House of Tudor and that is another passion of mine since the 6th grade as well. I found out much later that my maternal great grandmother’s surname was Tudor many years later, which might explain my fascination with him and the era.

I am not sure what you mean about estimates? Are you referring to time spent or money spent? If it’s money spent, it varies considerably from archive to archive. Some will charge minimal amounts for films, while others can charge over $1000 for a copy of a film. It just depends upon how the archive has structured their fees.

Any estimate on time taken to research Kellerman? Even just hours spent on one film or something, to give readers a bit of perspective as I’m not sure that those who do not research for writing etc, who only ’search’ for bidding/buying, will understand the enormity of how much time you’ve spent researching.

I would say I have probably spent at least 6 to 9 months (if you count it in one timeblock) in gathering research and dealing with archival sources, waiting for replies, etc. on Kellerman. This does not include the time it will take to sort through all the resources I have compiled and put them in an organized article.

You’ve found some spectacular things; I’m impressed beyond words. And exhausted just reading of your work — I know that there were/are hours of unrewarded searching, dead ends etc., while you still hope that you’ll get a reply or find another thread to pull…

The turnaround time for replies, diarying email requests for followup and then pursuit of additional leads is what takes the longest time. There have been instances of some archives (Gosfilmofond of Russia is a prime example) who continue to ignore email followup replies. This can also put longer research time into a project because of continued followups and still awaiting the missing information.

My whole goal is to find that lost silent treasure languishing in a private collection or archive and finally being one of the first people to see it after almost a century of being hidden away. This is probably the major reason I continue to do this in my spare time.

Your dedication is astounding — and so appreciated.

I appreciate the compliment. My whole reason for doing any of this is to save these films from extinction and to get them out there so the general public can see them. This is why they were created in the first place. I think it is a complete tragedy that some of these films have been held hostage in these archives for decades, some are deteriorated beyond repair (before people knew about cold storage techniques) and are either lost for good or kept hidden, much like the stereotype of the reclusive forgotten star of yesteryear.

When you ask the average person about silent film, most people will know Charlie Chaplin, Rudolph Valentino, Lillian Gish, Douglas Fairbanks, Mary Pickford, or Lon Chaney but when you ask them about people like Olive Thomas, Carol Dempster, Betty Bronson, Florence La Badie, Muriel Ostriche, Boyd Marshall, Marguerite Snow, Maude Fealy, Violet Mersereau, Claire Mersereau, Martha Mansfield, Mabel Taliaferro, Louise Glaum, Louise Lovely, Arline Pretty, Ella Hall, Ethel Grandin, Valda Valkyrien or Annette Kellermann, you get blank stares.

Most people when hearing the name Fatty Arbuckle immediately think of the 1922 rape and murder case of starlet Virginia Rappe and don’t realize he was acquitted in several trials but the case in effect ruined his career. He was just starting to get back into show business as an actor and director (under a pseudonym, William Goodrich, because he couldn’t get parts under the Arbuckle name) when he died in 1931.

When most people hear the name Mary Miles Minter, if they even know who this person was, they immediately think of the William Desmond Taylor unsolved murder case of 1922 and how both the careers of Mary Miles Minter and Mabel Normand were effectively ruined over the sensationalism of the case and the accusations hurled by the press in general.

By preserving and making the existing films available to the public, the stars of these productions, whether they are big names or forgotten ones, will have an enduring legacy that will live on.

The interview with Mary continues. Part Two will be published here at Collectors’ Quest on Monday — and believe me, you don’t want to miss it!

If you’d like to reach Mary Ann Cade, you may email her at cadesmall@sbcglobal.net or mcade@ccmsi.com. See more Annette Kellerman items here too.